Salient

Berlin, Maginot Line, Iron Curtain, North Korea/South Korea, North Vietnam/South Vietnam West Germany/East Germany, the Alamo etc etc.

Borders are a western invention, and because the west is so powerful, borders are part of the rest of the non western worlds problem. It is part of our Lockian way of thinking. This piece of land is mine, this piece of land is yours. Bugger off.

What it boils down to is a) resources and b) nationalism. in Iraq’s case it is both, in Berlin’s case it was just b. The West needs to move away from the perverted form of lockianism, J S Millism, Hobbesianism, that it has been cultivating for the past 400 years.

The west, and Israel, and any other culture/civilization/society/peoples are never going to get anywhere by building walls. The only way forward is to tear them down.

Ich bin ein Berliner

Funny thing about temporary walls / divisions / partitions / demarcations / de-militarised zones is, they have this annoying habit of becoming permanent. I disagree that it solely boils down to either resources or nationalism, however - it can also be for security.

That’s not to say that they aren’t effective - the Berlin Wall reduced the haemorrhaging of people from East Germany to West Germany to a mere trickle, and the West Bank wall has dramatically recuded the number of suicide bombings in Israel.

But I do agree that a different approach is needed - one that doesn’t serve as a twenty-foot tall symbol for the extremist elements in Iraq. Whilst I don’t think there’s any one solution to solve every situation that leads to the creation of these ‘walls’, I believe in this case the solution is greater regional autonomy - increased support for local militias who are more inclined to support the Maliki government in combatting and disarming extremist militias, the promotion of the ‘awakening movement’ to assist in handling local security concerns, and greater ties of cooperation between the Iraqi military and these regional militias.

It’s more a wall than a border, ain’t it?

Yer, but it once was a ‘border’ in a sense… separating two different people… the Chinese and the Mongols

Matthew: “increased support for local militias who are more inclined to support the Maliki government in combatting and disarming extremist militias”

Unfortunately these govt-friendly militias are just as well-known for sectarian killings as the “extremist” variety, so your solution is, well, terrible.

Matt: the Great Wall was more a trading post than a border: Chinese agents functioned outside of it without feeling like they were in alien land. Same with Hadrian’s Wall.

Tristan: the appearance and rising of the local awakening councils in provinces such as al Anbar, and Baghdad districts such as Adhamiya, has coincided with a relative drop in sectarian violence and attacks on Coalition forces. Whilst the background of many of these militia groups may be questionable, the result of their ‘awakening’ is irrefutable - the statistics on this are one of the few areas that the US military, and groups such as Iraq Body Count, agree upon.

I’m not proposing that all security concerns be handed over to these groups (far from it) - merely that the United States and Iraqi forces can’t be everywhere at once, and these local militias present a viable, if not ideal, alternative.

A more legitimate concern is what to do with the local militias long-term, if and when the violence begins to subside. Iraqi Armed Forces plan to absorb about 25% of them, but they’re not entirely sure what to do with the remaining 75%.

Getting a bit off topic though…

Tristan,

Yes, you are right - even the sanctioned militias are partisan in nature, and do not reflect a broad union of the various groups within their communities. Perhaps the solution there is a closer partnership with the Iraqi Armed / Police forces - small detachments of these forces attached to each militia group. Do the Iraqi security forces have the resources for that, I wonder?

The other option is, quite simply, absorb the lot of them into the Iraqi security forces, and put them on the payroll - albeit temporarily. Also, stress the nature of the conflict as a “war of national liberation”, rather than just as a civil strife. Then, after the war is ‘over’, keep 25% of the militia on the payroll, then disarm the rest by offering the promise of a ‘war veteran’ pension or stipend. That way, the Iraqi government gets what it wants - the disarming of the militias after the violence subsides - and the militias get what they want - some form of representation in the armed forces, as well as continued financial support from the government for the rest.

Umm .. wall in Israel to separate Palestinians from jobs, shops, etc, was funded by USA.

Same, wall in Bagdad to separate Iraqi’s from etc.

Just contractors repeating the contract in another location for same bosses.

Business wins. Locals find life exponentially more difficult. Treadmill of US involvement in oil wars continues to turn.

Time to opt out and get a bicycle.

Kerry: the West Bank Wall is a purely Israeli idea, proposed as early as 1992 by Yitzhak Rabin. Bush has actually expressed opposition to the idea of the wall, even if that opposition was somewhat limited in nature (from memory I believe he said that it was a problem, and should only be a temporary measure).

Whilst it is true that the United States does supply Israel with large amounts of money, Congress has passed laws that inhibit the supply of this money only so long as it is used “to support activities in the geographic areas which were subject to the administration of the Government of Israel before June 5, 1967.” (Public Law No. 108-11). This precludes its use in the construction of the West Bank Wall where it deviates from the so-called ‘green line’. So technically Israel CANNOT use US-funded money to construct the wall (although that doesn’t mean they wouldn’t do so on the sly).

I’m not condoning the wall by the way - I think as it currently stands it is a horrendous violation of the rights of everyday Palestinians, which in many cases has robbed, or is robbing them, of their livelihood. Whilst I respect that Israel had to do SOMETHING to stem the tide of suicide attacks at the beginning of the decade, I think it should have done this in a more appropriate fashion. Israel seems to have trouble recognising appropriate retaliation from massive retalistion.